Curse

=HT=Ingram · Jul 25, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

if that TRADE button vanish overnight and they made it that no one could drop gold on the ground. Bingo. Problem solved...

Never again will we have spammers or gold buyers or sellers for that matter, or any other kind of annoyance or cheating to be in the game. it 100% all stems from the TRADE button. Once gone so are the majority of the problems in the game and guess what else? Drops get 1000s of times better at the same time. AND you can USE them and have pride that you EARNED them. Imagine a green every few hours... or at least 1 gold Every single mission... Having chest quality that are reflective of the area they are found.

That's how it USED to be before the game and market become Abusive Inflation Gluttonous land from over farming and use of illegal bots, and gold buyers.

acidic · Jul 25, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

if that TRADE button vanish overnight and they made it that no one could drop gold on the ground. Bingo. Problem solved...

Never again will we have spammers or gold buyers or sellers for that matter, or any other kind of annoyance or cheating to be in the game. it 100% all stems from the TRADE button. Once gone so are the majority of the problems in the game and guess what else? Drops get 1000s of times better at the same time. AND you can USE them and have pride that you EARNED them. Imagine a green every few hours... or at least 1 gold Every single mission... Having chest quality that are reflective of the area they are found.

That's how it USED to be before the game and market become Abusive Inflation Gluttonous land from over farming and use of illegal bots, and gold buyers.

it might mitigate it but it wont kill ebay. people will resort to selling accounts

=HT=Ingram · Jul 25, 2007, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Sorry for the rant. I deleted it... However I condensed to just the prior post.

I am so frustrated. I need to step back and take a break from guru for a while... IDK why some of the people here get so adamant about wanting to be allowed to cheat. I just do not get it at all?

acidic · Jul 25, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

its capitalism people. There will always be those people that will try and make a quick buck. Getting rid of gold isn't the answer as diablo 2 proved. People will start selling items. Getting rid of trade/drop doesn't work as people will start selling accounts. Getting rid of account transfers doesn't work as people will just use the same name. Getting rid of changing password wont work because it will eliminate a large number of fair players.

So in all there will always be some botters ebayers, but we should not make the game unenjoyable to the average person in an attempt to eliminate every single ebayer. The key is balance.

TheLichMonky · Jul 25, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Why would anet stop botting? when the botters get their account banned the bots buy new accounts.. giving anet more of a profit, they also make the mistake of banning those who ebay because if i were to get banned i would never buy a new account or try gw2.... bots will... anet loves bots

Fitz Rinley · Jul 25, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

The Edit button was not working so I had to repost to edit. Now that it has finally decided to work - after I have edited and reposted and made breakfast in the microwave (a minimum of 4 minutes from hitting the edit button) I have deleted the unedited post. And now the save button is not responding.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 25, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

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Freezyguy:
Why are e-bayers bad? I never understood why people look down apon them so much, its almost like you all think they are stealing from you personally.

They are bad because they keep the cost of items high. Since anyone can purchase excessive amounts of gold at anytime sellers can expect to get 100k plus 50 ecto for an item, and can refuse to sell unless they do.
Further, virtual currency and vitual item sales are estimated by the government at approximately 7 billion dollars a year as an untaxed and untraced industry. Those who are not paying taxes are stealing directly from my governments. If all persons involved were in my state alone the taxes could run as high as $3,150,000,000. This is assuming it is all privately done; it is not and the tax intake would be closer to $840,000,000 as a lower end estimate.
Also, it is an untracked industry whose profits are assumed to be going strictly into the hands of Chinese sweatshops. I do not believe the that is where it all goes. As an untracked industry it is a world threat and potential source of income for criminal activity. We already know they get many accounts through key loggers, not purchase. They steal accounts from people they entice into purchase of their commodities and then it is the tempted fan that suffers. (I do not buy from them or look of cheats so I am not a victim, but I have an obligation to those who have been because I also am human.) And what if those sweatshops are in isolated oppressed Islamic communities in West China who seek liberation by supporting the activities of their brethren Taliban and Al Qaeda? The money being untraced, how many men, women, and children may be violently affected by it? (And even if they are not, leaving the loop-hole available is unwise.)

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JDRyder:
The next point for ebayers is that A-Net is continually making legitimate farming harder and harder making gold more scarce, yet the price of armour has remainded stagnent. A-net is forcing players to make a choice: A) forgo the top quality stuff and just use collector weapons and armour, B) Legitimatley farm for hours on end to purchase a couple nice looking weapons or 15k armour, C) Spend 3 minutes on-line and buy 1 mil gold. Which choice is the most appealing? The only way to make option B better than C is to either change the prices or make farming EASIER so we wont need bots to do it for us.

Agreed, every action ANet has taken to discourage botting has been to the exact opposite effect. By decreasing player opportunity to succeed they increase player interest in violating the EULA. Every gold sink they increase this pressure. Every reduction in farming they increase this pressure. The only way to undermine the botting industry is to make it non-profitable. Cut the restrictions and let people have open drops.

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p.s. Why doesn't A-Net just sell the gold on their store and reap the profits the botters are making.

In theory, GW is a game for those of us who cannot afford to play the pay-per-month games. If the majority, or even a sizeable minority, cannot afford the $15.00/month for the Evercrack type game then allowing well off players to buy gold would undermine game play just as botting does. It becomes a game where only rich kids have everything and all others must be subject to their generosity or do without.

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=HT=Ingram:
That's how it USED to be before the game and market become Abusive Inflation Gluttonous land from over farming and use of illegal bots, and gold buyers.

No economy can run unregulated. Every attempt at a fully deregulated economy has been disastrous for the bulk of the population. GW has some benefits in that individual wealth is capped in terms of gold. However, the requisites for maxing out all play options are so extreme as to be unattainable. The amount of hours and gold it would take to max out all titles, all armor and weapon options/preferences, all heroes is so extreme as to make the possibility negligible. Opening up drops without restrictions and expanding the inscription system to Cantha and Tyria would make a great deal of difference and more satisfied players who do not have to spend their hours in tedious repetitive farming. Currently the game is about 85-90% “farming for.”

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=HT=Ingram:
Sorry for the rant. I deleted it... However I condensed to just the prior post.

I am so frustrated. I need to step back and take a break from guru for a while... IDK why some of the people here get so adamant about wanting to be allowed to cheat. I just do not get it at all?

There are many reasons why people like the current system. It grants them economic power over others. It gives them a sense of superiority to know they are getting what others cannot. They cheat for the ego trip and power. It is a sign of immaturity. Currently I have a gold scythe that is a gift from a friend, and a green I use with Olias that is borrwed from a neighbor. I also was given a +28 health wrap by a friend. In Pre I have two greens that were given to me by a friend who I have been fighting Charr with. Outside of that, everything I have I got myself. Since I rarely party with others I am almost exclusively self-made.

But I also know from personal experience that anyone claiming the Farm code is removed is lying. I detest farming. I hate it with a passion. But I have to do it to get anything; especially since nothing worthwhile drops in the game. When I do a vermin run and not one body in a group of 6-8 drops a single thing I know there is a farming code.

I have one gold weapon of decent value (not max) that I have kept specifically because it was close. I have found a few runes to put on my heroes. Anything else I have is purchased from a merchant, or to make an Earth Staff for farming I bought two items in trade. (Earned as I paid for them and the mods I needed had never dropped.) Any other golds I have are for salvaging or merching once I get to where I can have a decent weapon (with a skin I don't want) made.

It is the restrictions on drops that destroys opportunity for individuals to enjoy the game and provides incentive for others to e-bay and cheat.

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acidic:
its capitalism people. There will always be those people that will try and make a quick buck. Getting rid of gold isn't the answer as diablo 2 proved.

If Diablo 2 had been reading what I was writing he would never have made the statement. There was never a request to get rid of gold. The request is for deflationary measures that make purchase of e-bay gold so unnecessary as to eliminate the reason for botting this game.

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So in all there will always be some botters ebayers, but we should not make the game unenjoyable to the average person in an attempt to eliminate every single ebayer. The key is balance.

There is a difference between some (a half dozen or so individuals) and a plethora of monk/mesmers in Altrumm Ruins everytime you show up, or the hordes in Bergen farming for Undead Swords, or Citadel, or, or, or… Just because you can’t catch all crystal meth pushers/makers is no reason to do nothing about it. Just as drug dealers wreck our real world the EULA violators are affecting our virtual world.

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TheLichMonky:
Why would anet stop botting? when the botters get their account banned the bots buy new accounts.. giving anet more of a profit, they also make the mistake of banning those who ebay because if i were to get banned i would never buy a new account or try gw2.... bots will... anet loves bots

Bots buy some accounts, when they cannot steal them from players tempted to cheat because of the bad economy. Then it is hard working parents who have to buy the game over – or will never buy the game again, or its relatives, as punishment for their child. ANet’s benefit from botting can only be illicit – they benefit only if running the sweatshops or paid by them. If ANet or its employees are taking payments to permit botting then there is a greater issue involved – especially as the income in this industry is untraced and untaxed.

Mordakai · Jul 25, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Also, it is an untracked industry whose profits are assumed to be going strictly into the hands of Chinese sweatshops. I do not believe the that is where it all goes. As an untracked industry it is a world threat and potential source of income for criminal activity. We already know they get many accounts through key loggers, not purchase. They steal accounts from people they entice into purchase of their commodities and then it is the tempted fan that suffers. (I do not buy from them or look of cheats so I am not a victim, but I have an obligation to those who have been because I also am human.) And what if those sweatshops are in isolated oppressed Islamic communities in West China who seek liberation by supporting the activities of their brethren Taliban and Al Qaeda? The money being untraced, how many men, women, and children may be violently affected by it? (And even if they are not, leaving the loop-hole available is unwise.)

OMG, don't ebay Gold or you support terrorists?!?

If you want to stop Chinese sweatshops, you better stop wearing clothes. And buying packaged foods. And toys.

Everything is made in China, and yes, China does bad things with its money. (google Darfur and China for more info)

You want to make a political statement? Stop buying Gasoline. Ebayers are not the greatest danger in today's society.

Darkobra · Jul 25, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

So you're saying you want the rare items, which can be made with collectors items and mods, to drop more often just for you?

Rago's Flame Staff: Quite expensive last I heard. I made a replica, minus the unique skin, for 5k. If you don't have the 5k to do that, ask me. I'll GIVE you it. Maybe I'll scrounge up a few mods for you too. I've also made a duplicate of Kepkhet's Refuge, Ghial's Staff and more.

If you were just concerned about bots, you wouldn't bring up your income from second rate farming. So this is either about bots or about you not making the cash because the greens don't drop. Well if the greens dropped more often, the prices would lower.

There's a reason rare and unique items are in the game. It's to keep people playing in order to get their hands on these items. If they were common, they wouldn't be worth rushing for unless their stats were exceptionally different and overpowering.

You say that you had one of your SPELL CASTING heroes die because of a different staff usage? I doubt it. I can use no staff at all on my elementalist and I'd still do the same damage and take the same damage. So unless this green happened to be a vampiric sword you stuck on him to watch him die, I honestly don't see this happening.

As for me, I don't trade often with others. Anything I find, I keep for myself or it becomes merchant fodder.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 27, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Mordakai:

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Fitz Rinley:
Also, it is an untracked industry whose profits are assumed to be going strictly into the hands of Chinese sweatshops. I do not believe the that is where it all goes. As an untracked industry it is a world threat and potential source of income for criminal activity. We already know they get many accounts through key loggers, not purchase. They steal accounts from people they entice into purchase of their commodities and then it is the tempted fan that suffers. (I do not buy from them or look of cheats so I am not a victim, but I have an obligation to those who have been because I also am human.) And what if those sweatshops are in isolated oppressed Islamic communities in West China who seek liberation by supporting the activities of their brethren Taliban and Al Qaeda? The money being untraced, how many men, women, and children may be violently affected by it? (And even if they are not, leaving the loop-hole available is unwise.)

OMG, don't ebay Gold or you support terrorists?!?

I am quite aware of the Chinese Oil companies connections to Darfour. That is immaterial to what I suggested if you read it. What legitimate Chinese businesses are doing and not doing is a different kind of legal issue. They are not operating completely outside of observance nor are they beyond prosecution should the authorities bother. Your equation of all Chinese/American industrial development as sweatshop is inaccurate, though there are identified abuses. E-baying (term for those that buy virtual items and currency on-line from whatever source) is a threat because it is an untraced and untaxed economic exchange that can be exploited by criminal elements. Those that practice it are not legitimate companies. They use key loggers to steal accounts from players – this means they are criminals, not legitimate businesses. Nor are we discussing what is the greatest threat to today’s society, if we were we would start with terrorism at #2 and the Democratic Party, IMO&E, as #1.

My statement isn’t about making or changing politics. It is about the lack of accountability in the system which provides known criminals billions in funding. If you buy e-bay currency or items you are supporting criminals.

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Darkobra:
So you're saying you want the rare items, which can be made with collectors items and mods, to drop more often just for you?

Try reading. I stated I want an end to loot scaling, farming codes (and yes they still exist no matter what lies they are telling us), and an opening up of the drops so that all players can get what they want to enjoy the game. Doing so is the only way to undermine the need for the illicit economy/EULA violation economy which is inspired through the current system of Prohibition.

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Rago's Flame Staff: Quite expensive last I heard. I made a replica, minus the unique skin, for 5k. If you don't have the 5k to do that, ask me. I'll GIVE you it. Maybe I'll scrounge up a few mods for you too. I've also made a duplicate of Kepkhet's Refuge, Ghial's Staff and more.

I have made replica of Galigord’s for my elementalist. Since I am forced to farm for a few platinum a day every day to attempt to outfit my heroes properly. I resent having to do so, and it is not playing the game. Once you have to spend 85-95% of your time or more farming it is no longer a game, it is assembly line labor. Virtual entertainment should not ever for any reason be a mindless duplication of working for a living and especially not because of backwards efforts to “prevent botting” which in every case only increase the demand for it.

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If you were just concerned about bots, you wouldn't bring up your income from second rate farming. So this is either about bots or about you not making the cash because the greens don't drop. Well if the greens dropped more often, the prices would lower.

Frankly, I do not like most greens. Those that have a decent appearance have lousy spec.s Those that have acceptable spec.s often look like junk. I want to enjoy playing the game, not spend all of my time farming crap drops to still never be able to get anything I would appreciate playing with. I cannot imagine any other player feels differently if they have any sense of characterization or personal aesthetic expression. If other players feel they are best expressed through the use of said green items, then they should not have access to them controlled by an elite few farmers and botting supply companies because of a misguided effort in Prohibition aimed at supposedly making it more difficult for bots/sweatshop farmers when in fact it only inspires and increases their demand. Nor should I have to spend months or years waiting for something I want to drop so that a character can be expressed in the manner I wish to play said character.

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There's a reason rare and unique items are in the game. It's to keep people playing in order to get their hands on these items. If they were common, they wouldn't be worth rushing for unless their stats were exceptionally different and overpowering.

So, you ascribe to that miserable paradise of Ayn Randian philosophy that believes all humans will only function out of greed for material success and that without the tease of that success being incrementally denied in degrees they have no reason to enjoy the game. Sounds to me like pretty poor character and equally poor game design if that is the case. The reason rare and unique items are rare and unique is to maintain an audience of those ego-centric and immature players who feel having boasting rights over others is the way to personal empowerment. While such persons often succumb to the kind of Ayn Randian lifestyle you ascribe to all, all of us are not members of this immature and self-centered group. I have used my personal experience in game to describe what is happening and what I continue to see. Regardless of where I go, in mission, in quest, killing for Sunspear Points, killing for Faction, or killing for gold I see a dearth of acceptable and decent drops in all categories; this is not about getting greens it is about being able to play expressively and effectively without inordinate amounts of grind. As indicated earlier: If the community finds it necessary to automate play/bot then you have identified that portion of your game which is tedious and not fun.

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You say that you had one of your SPELL CASTING heroes die because of a different staff usage? I doubt it. I can use no staff at all on my elementalist and I'd still do the same damage and take the same damage. So unless this green happened to be a vampiric sword you stuck on him to watch him die, I honestly don't see this happening.

You didn’t pay attention to what you read. No it was not a staff, it was a focus.

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As for me, I don't trade often with others. Anything I find, I keep for myself or it becomes merchant fodder.

I rarely trade with others. I have occasionally done it in order to get a decent mod, since I do not get them in drops. I primarily do not trade with others because I cannot afford to trade with others.

Even when only seeking to get collectable drops for collector items I have had to spend 1k a piece for them. As I have stated, I spent 3 days (at about 10-15 hours a day) killing Gaki and their kin for Skull Jujus. I never saw a single one drop. In three days I did not receive a single one as a drop. I have been doing Vermin runs at about 1.2 k a piece (about 600g per pass). I have tried Pong Mei valley for less, and I have farmed the Minotaurs outside of Icetooth Cave for less. If lucky 1 in 3-8 will actually drop a few gold, body part, or something of little to no value. I see the same when I go to Arkjok Ward and kill insects for Sunspear Points and gold. A days worth of Work to supposedly Play will yield perhaps 5-7 k which does little or nothing in acquiring all needed runes and materials for playing (not even mentioning the Excessive gold sinks for titles). Currently I have given up trying to play completely within the proper appearances of the game. I have put bonus items on all my heroes that can use them. I should instead be able to put at a minimum collector items on each. Fully outfitting 140 heroes is not something I expect to do immediately, but at a minimum each when opened needs 7 to 10 k in supplies (assuming no one is interested in putting Superior Runes of Vigor on them). This does not count weapons and off-hands which I purchased from GW, so to speak, with real currency through bonus packages. I should not have to do this to outfit my characters and heroes, nor should anyone else.

We know GW has lied to us in the past about drop restrictions (Farm Codes) which they denied having. They are still lying about it, and further restricting (Prohibiting player access/attainment) with Loot Scaling. This can and does have only one impact – to increase illicit behavior and EULA violations. The only way to eliminate the hordes of Mo/Me running in and out of Altrumm Ruins, Bergen, Citadel, etc. is to eliminate the need for their services. The fact is, as long as GW bases its policy on Prohibition, it will fail utterly. The one good aspect I could see to GW selling gold directly to player is then those who bot/sweatshop would be thieves stealing directly from GW profit-margin, instead of just stealing player enjoyment of the game by inspiring GW to prohibition that continues to inflate prices, inflate over-loardship for the established characters over new and less established characters, and promote the illicit/EULA violating economy run by criminal elements. Where they have increased drops the prices have dropped. I still remember Superior Runes of Absorption being 95 to 105 k apiece. Now I find them regularly and they have little to no value even as merchant fodder.

And simply incraesing the amount of gold drops is insufficient. The gold drops, purple drops, blue drops, and white drops need to be open: 1. No restricting all decent modifiable weapons and off-hands to Nightfall. 2. No limiting all max stats to Hard Mode. (If people aren't playing hard mode because they want the challenge they should not be penalized as second or third class citizens dependant upon fellow players for desirable loot. Those who play hard mode should be doing it because they want to not because they are coerced into it as the only method by which they can obtain anything worth having. And yes I have played in and farmed in hard mode. Other than a few tomes, it was just as worthless as farming in normal mode.)

Sli Ander · Jul 27, 2007, 09:11 AM // 09:11

There's two things I've noticed about all your posts: you use the word "need" a lot, and you've somehow achieved the notion that 'vanity items' and items that 'look good' aren't the same thing(and that somehow your artistic appreciation is somehow better than other peoples)

From what I've read here the problem is not the bots; though bots are a pervasive little virus, they have very little to do with the actual problem you're experiencing. Your problem is your expectations and your inability to accept the fact that they won't always be met. Not every character skin, armor, or weapon will meet your aesthetic standards. Deal with it. If you play for as long as you say you do(I believe your other thread mentioned 12 hour days, or some-odd number) then of course you're going to become frustrated with aspects of the game. Take a break.

The problems you've discussed in this thread are the availability of gold and items. Items drop with varying rarity. Knowing that something is rare and powerful gives most people a jump of excitement when they get the drop. If the drop becomes common, that excitement goes away(depends on the skin). I don't need fancy skins to get me excited(and some rare skins I don't like), but I do appreciate my characters looking good. It's nice to know you have something nice, but there's no need to go overboard because it wasn't handed to you on a silver platter. The only rare items I've ever owned/used were given to me by friends. One was passed to another guildie that needed it, I still actively use the others for the stats(and I wouldn't part with such a generous gift). So that comes to problem number two.

Gold drops. From what you say, and your apparent incessant 'need' to make your characters look 'pretty', the problem is not in the gold you're making, it's in your ability to manage your money within your means. Your characters don't need fancy armor. They don't need pretty weapons. They don't need Runes of Superior Vigor. Those are all 'nice to haves'. Most people that play this game are quite content to develop their characters with whatever comes to hand. Collector armor, collector weapons or decent drops, or the occasional switchover from another finished character. If you go spending what little gold you earn on a bunch of expensive equipment, of course you're going to run out. If you save most of the gold by simply using what you have as long as you can, when you reach the end-game you should be able to afford a more expensive armor (or at least a 'prettier' weapon). And then there is the end game content, which gives more opportunities for money and drops.

My main confusion is why you would persist in playing like this, when farming obviously makes you unhappy. THEN WHY ARE YOU STILL FARMING? You don't need those items, and there are ways to have fun and still get them. If I take one of my characters through a particular area(maybe to explore) and get collectables I know a new character will need for armor, I save them for that character. Can't get a certain collectable for a certain character? Go have fun with a different one until your frustration goes away.
The only farming I've ever done is in the tombs, and with some undead(I wanted to have some fun smiting). If I don't get a green, oh well, I had fun getting there. If you can manage how much you're spending, and hold off on spending on items you don't need, you'll find you can save quite a bit.

If you still can't keep hold of your money after cutting back and being a bit more conservative, then try something like this:when you know a festival is coming up, find out what is going to be collected. Spend an hour or so a day in an area where you can get these collectables, and have some fun testing builds to get them. When the festival rolls around in a couple weeks, sell stacks of the items for cheaper than whatever the going rate is. I made 400k that way last Halloween from 1 week of testing builds. Because I used my brain to find a way to have some fun,(rather than mindlessly killing things) I managed to have enough that I could comfortably splurge on a set of 15k for one of my characters.

I'll end this diatribe on several points: 1) don't blame others for your frustration
2)Bots are bad, but they aren't out to get you
3) Cut back on the Ayn Rand quotes and big words, and try being less antagonistic. It will make you sound smarter than any amount of syllables.
4)If you aren't having fun, step back and think of a way to do things differently.
5)It's a game, don't take it so seriously. Have fun.

But that's just my two cents

Fitz Rinley · Jul 29, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Sli Ander,

First, I want to thank you for your well thought out and gracious advice to a fellow player.

Money management is not an issue for me. I am a cheapskate by nature. I grew up in a religion that separates the difference between wants and needs and only tithes that difference. I have for religious purposes over 30 years separated out financial goals and delineated those differences such that I keep my entire life at expense levels others dream of ($55 electric bill, $140 rent, $700/year in propane for heat, etc.) I am further willing to make sacrifices others are not. When I determined to get the Labrynthine Armor for my monk I bought no other. I did not buy a multitude of armors and waste money on middle ground junk. Doing so is like wanting high-end wood slat blinds for one’s home and so in the mean time buy sheets to drape over the windows, but 1/4 of the way to getting the money for the blinds spending all you have on cheap curtains, and 1/2 way again to getting all the blinds spending all you have on slightly better curtains, and then 3/4 of the way again to getting the blinds spending all you have for Venetian blinds to make do. The ultimate cost of your final blinds then is 250% of the time and savings to get them. Instead, I got to Beacons, got run to Droknars, and at 10th level using 4 skills, pre-Searing Armor, and Henchies, did Ice Caves mission and fought to Grotto from Iron Mines. After that, I dedicated what I made to acquiring the armor I wanted for that character so that he would have the appearance I want to be entertained with for that character. I also purchased a healing branch in Elona, runes, and set him for playing the way I want him. I did not waste money on other things I did not need in order to be entertained by the image I find appealing on the screen or things that I found undesirable or detested.

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and you've somehow achieved the notion that 'vanity items' and items that 'look good' aren't the same thing(and that somehow your artistic appreciation is somehow better than other peoples)

First, a vanity item is something that has no effect. The mirrors one takes to the starving and homeless in Kaineng are vanity items. They mean nothing to those receiving them and will do nothing for them. Items that entertain the customer because they are appealing aesthetically and express what the player desires to express are Not Vanity items, they have an effect that is key to marketability of the game. “Sure I know this cool game with really cool looking stuff, but don’t expect to ever get more than about 1-3% of anything you think is interesting or neat, cuz it is all rare. Well rare means they don’t want players/customers to actually be able to enjoy the appearance of their character or do the things they want to do with them because it might somehow upset someone else who has these rare things to think anyone else also has them. The idea of sharing conceptually is really discouraged. But it is such a cool game you will really enjoy seeing other people occasionally happen to have something neat even if you never do. But that is to reflect the realism of our world full of elitist jerks that can afford anything they want while everyone else is expected to do without. So it is a really good thing for everyone to just be frustrated and not get the stuff that would entertain them the way they want to be entertained. Yeah, all those other games where you can just save up points and go get what you are after are just so cheap. Imagine letting people actually get something they enjoy. It is so much better to prevent that at all costs.” This argument is not working well with me.

And yes, after spending 40 years in and around the arts, with a father who is a founder of art shows, juror of art shows, art instructor, landscape designer, (specialized in Shinto concept and re-application to native materials) I am quite experienced in what is and is not good art. The art I criticized specifically is the muddy “I didn’t ever have time for a bath” starter armor on Necros in Elona. I notice that Lorai has time for a bath. She is not covered in muddy crap all over her thighs, elbows, shoulders, chest, back, and calves. She is clean and the same base armor looks decent. Her having good hygiene practice does not detract from its appearance at all, while the lack of it in the Elonan base Necro armor does. I do not generally care for the wood staves, but they are great art for those who wish to express a more natural source of their magic. Unfortunately the armors do not correlate in any way as consistent with the weapons. There is no artistic integrity between them what-so-ever. I do have a healing branch on my monk because it goes well with his Lab armor.

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Your problem is your expectations and your inability to accept the fact that they won't always be met.

I agree that this is the case in Real Life. I do not make the mistake of confusing real life with virtual life. In real life one should never expect one’s efforts to be rewarded with a reciprocal outcome. Doing so will only lead to continual disappointment. Instead, in real life one should Only expect one’s efforts to be rewarded with a possibility of intended outcome and then not be surprised when it rarely does. The entire reason for virtual games/virtual life is that it is not real life. It is a fantasy game environment in which effort actually has value. Currently effort in GW does not have reciprocated value. If one makes the effort to go out and farm farm codes and loot scaling are programmed to prevent reward for one’s effort. These things exist because of e-bay gold buyers and bots. E-bay gold buyers exist because the economy is run so lean as to prohibit players from being able to get the things they need to express their character in the manner that entertains them. This is different from a want, because a want would be extraneous to the purpose of the game. I want to maintain my own identity and coat of arms in Guild Wars and therefore refuse to destroy my guild just to join some large Faction Farming Mega Zerg for benefits (nor should I have to do so). But keeping my autonomy is a want, and not a formal part of game design. Everything about Factions was aimed at destroying small and single man guilds and eliminating said autonomy – so it is clearly and only a want. But the function of a fantasy game is to express one’s self in ways one cannot in real life. That means being able to get and use the items and appearances that entertain you in that expression. This is a “need” for the customer base, not a want.

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Not every character skin, armor, or weapon will meet your aesthetic standards. Deal with it.

I do not expect all of them to meet my standards. I do expect to be able to reasonably get and use those things that do through moderate and not excessive (and punished) effort.

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If you play for as long as you say you do(I believe your other thread mentioned 12 hour days, or some-odd number) then of course you're going to become frustrated with aspects of the game. Take a break.

If one’s effort in the game was worth while then one would not become frustrated. If one’s effort in the game was worth while then people would not be purchasing bot programs. If one’s effort in the game was worth while then people would not be buying e-bay gold and virtual items to compensate for the tedious “un-fun” aspects of the game. Nor will taking a break make one’s efforts worth while as the game designers only reward and only appreciate mindless tedious repetitive boring monotonous grind fests.

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The problems you've discussed in this thread are the availability of gold and items. Items drop with varying rarity. Knowing that something is rare and powerful gives most people a jump of excitement when they get the drop. If the drop becomes common, that excitement goes away(depends on the skin).

So if we make nuclear waste rare people will become positively excited to find it? Or we should make food rare so people will really appreciate it when they are starving. Starving people of things that they would enjoy just to give them a high end adrenal rush for 5 seconds when they find it does not strike me as exciting. It strikes me as sadistic. Further, since when you find those skins they are never worth playing anyway (they are all lousy stats whether you get in normal or HM) what is the point? “Oh, cool a rare skin – well let’s merch it. It’s still crap like everything else.”

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I don't need fancy skins to get me excited(and some rare skins I don't like), but I do appreciate my characters looking good. It's nice to know you have something nice, but there's no need to go overboard because it wasn't handed to you on a silver platter.

I also appreciate my characters looking within character. I do not particularly care for, as my first choice of armor, the warrior’s Ascalon armor. I am much more appreciative of the straight chain mail available in the Bazaar in Cantha. However, my warrior is being remade so he can get the Defender title for my personal story line on him. While I would not prefer to wear the Ascalon armor, it is the appropriate armor for him to wear and what he as a persona would choose. When he beat the game the first time he did so with Bludgeoner, which was a chance drop on a farming party that I went on because a neighbor wanted me to go. I do not expect to get greens when I go out, and I do not care for most of them at all. Most of them have stats that to me are useless or too limited. Further, I do not like the look of most of them either – they would not be appropriate to my character’s personas.

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The only rare items I've ever owned/used were given to me by friends. One was passed to another guildie that needed it, I still actively use the others for the stats(and I wouldn't part with such a generous gift). So that comes to problem number two.

The ones I am using on my heroes were loaned to me by friends. Nothing else I have is in my estimation rare if I have it because I have it. The few greens I do have, four of which are baby greens are useless and have no value.

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Most people that play this game are quite content to develop their characters with whatever comes to hand. Collector armor, collector weapons or decent drops, or the occasional switchover from another finished character. If you go spending what little gold you earn on a bunch of expensive equipment, of course you're going to run out.

So, where is the collector max armor in Elona? My Paragon, Necro, Mesmer, and Dervish want to know. And having an appearance that I do not like, or cannot stand, is not something that entertains me. Hence, it is a need to have that appearance, not a want. Runes of Major if not superior Vigor are necessary to offset costs of major and super attribute runes needed to play the game. They are not a want. And as I indicated, it is needed to put at least major vigors on my heroes, that I was not insisting they all have superior. The fact is using what one finds when one accidentally happens to run into it is in efficient and too late for play. This is exceedingly true if you are trying for Survivor title, which requires good equipment on anyone that does not intend to map out on every party that runs into trouble.

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If you save most of the gold by simply using what you have as long as you can, when you reach the end-game you should be able to afford a more expensive armor (or at least a 'prettier' weapon). And then there is the end game content, which gives more opportunities for money and drops.

What is the point of playing in crap to dress up the character and put them away once you are through the game? You should be able to be entertained with the appearance that entertains you while you are playing not pull it out and go, “Gee, doesn’t it look good now that I have nothing to do with it.”

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My main confusion is why you would persist in playing like this, when farming obviously makes you unhappy. THEN WHY ARE YOU STILL FARMING?

Because Farming or e-baying are the only ways to get money and I won’t e-bay.

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You don't need those items, and there are ways to have fun and still get them. If I take one of my characters through a particular area(maybe to explore) and get collectables I know a new character will need for armor, I save them for that character. Can't get a certain collectable for a certain character? Go have fun with a different one until your frustration goes away.

Yes, I do need those items. And no exploration does not provide anything of value. I have been mapping areas, scraping walls, etc. while I do quests and missions in between farming runs. It does not matter what character, it does not matter how many or how few characters, it does not matter what mode I am in, the amount of value in drops is lousy. The kind of drops are lousy. The mods on drops are lousy. The skins with their stats are lousy. The ability to get what I need to express my characters is “vitually” non-existent. It all stems from ANets prohibition against players getting anything of value in drops in order to provide elite segregation to, loot scaling, and other responses to penalize normal players and inspire e-bay gold buying. I will not buy the gold, and therefore I resent and detest the measures taken to ensure I cannot get what I need to enjoy playing the game. Nor do I appreciate the lack of fairness in setting up only Elonan gear as having any value, through inscriptions, and not making that system available throughout the entire game. Again, it is more coercion on their part, which promotes elitism and special treatment of persons in game.

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If you still can't keep hold of your money after cutting back and being a bit more conservative, then try something like this:when you know a festival is coming up, find out what is going to be collected.

I did that on CCs when they came out. I ended up giving almost 400 CCs away to a friend because they were worthless.

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1) don't blame others for your frustration

Without ANet’s prohibitions against players being able to get anything of value to them I would not be frustrated concerning this.

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2)Bots are bad, but they aren't out to get you

Bots destroy the game and therefore are out to get everyone, including me. They are not specifically targeting me, but they are criminals who will target anyone. The only way to eliminate them is to eliminate the need for their services – open the drops.

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3) Cut back on the Ayn Rand quotes and big words, and try being less antagonistic. It will make you sound smarter than any amount of syllables.

I do not lie about who or what I am. I am antagonistic and those responsible have earned it. Those afraid of accurate words merely because they have more than one syllable have deeper issues than I have.

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4)If you aren't having fun, step back and think of a way to do things differently.

I will have fun when I can express my characters in a manner enjoyable to me and not before. I will have fun when the things available in the game are affordable. They are not affordable. Hence, the reason for farming and botting is directly caused by ANet.

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5)It's a game, don't take it so seriously. Have fun.

While we remain penalized due to short sighted and narrow minded policy which inspires EULA violation and forces farming in order to achieve anything of value, policy which promotes excessive prices and price gouging, then I find the situation serious. There is a criminal industry of untraced/untaxed money in excess of 7 billion a year to which ANet policy is contributing through prohibitive drops and allowance of sweatshop/botting. If you can prove that none of this untraced/untaxed money has been used in an illegal manner (which you can’t) then the discussion is not serious. I remember when drug dealers were busted in St. Louis area for using the kindergartner’s lunch boxes to make their exchanges with the parents. Using GW for an illegal exchange or to support illegal activities would in my opinion be no different. GW punishing legitimate players while doing nothing to prevent it does not inspire me to think the situation hunky-dory, and ignorable.

Entreri · Jul 31, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I will have fun when I can express my characters in a manner enjoyable to me and not before. I will have fun when the things available in the game are affordable. They are not affordable. Hence, the reason for farming and botting is directly caused by ANet.

Things seem a lot more affordable now that ANet put the farming restrictions in. I'd say prices are down across the board which is nice. Sure you get less when you sell stuff, but you're paying less when you buy so that washes out. Things like quests are unchanged so you're effectively getting more for doing quests then you were before.

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

While we remain penalized due to short sighted and narrow minded policy which inspires EULA violation and forces farming in order to achieve anything of value, policy which promotes excessive prices and price gouging, then I find the situation serious. There is a criminal industry of untraced/untaxed money in excess of 7 billion a year to which ANet policy is contributing through prohibitive drops and allowance of sweatshop/botting. If you can prove that none of this untraced/untaxed money has been used in an illegal manner (which you can’t) then the discussion is not serious. I remember when drug dealers were busted in St. Louis area for using the kindergartner’s lunch boxes to make their exchanges with the parents. Using GW for an illegal exchange or to support illegal activities would in my opinion be no different. GW punishing legitimate players while doing nothing to prevent it does not inspire me to think the situation hunky-dory, and ignorable.

That's a slippery slope argument. I don't think many people pay tax on what they make on garage sales. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that garage sales support terrorism.

The argument could be made that buying gold helps the U.S. economy. Say you could farm an item you want in five hours or you could spend $15 dollars to ebay it.

- if you play the game for five hours, you put $0 in the government's pocket
- if you work for even a portion of that time you put money in the government's pocket since they tax your earnings

Even if you make minimum wage, you're still going to be ahead... either in money if you work that whole time or in time if you work just long enough to get your item.

Let's be selfish and not worry about terrorism or the U.S. economy and worry about what gives us the most fun. Here's the important part. The way that you make playing the game the better choice is if you have fun while you're doing it. Who cares if it takes you five times as long to get your item if you're doing the stuff you enjoy? Just do the stuff you like and things will come in time.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 31, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

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Originally Posted by Entreri

Things seem a lot more affordable now that ANet put the farming restrictions in. I'd say prices are down across the board which is nice. Sure you get less when you sell stuff, but you're paying less when you buy so that washes out. Things like quests are unchanged so you're effectively getting more for doing quests then you were before.

You are confusing two different economies: 1) regulated trade, and 2) unregulated player to player market. I am ignoring the player to player market as I am quite aware I will never have enough money to buy anything from it. Purchases from that market are for extraneous things that others found and you did not find. Why are you not finding them? Because of restrictions on drops and quality of drops that promote a caste system in the game. To get upper end drops one must be in hard mode, supposedly. Frankly the only thing I get in hard mode is warrior tomes. The only place I ever see any drops worth taking something off of is Elona, past Istan or from a chest which you do not know when you can go check. Thus far, I have not had anything come out of a chest that I remember thinking "Wow, gotta keep this." Nothing that I have seen is worth crap - nothing. Further, I always discount greens as useless because of the inability to tailor them to my character. Most of them look horrid anyway, and if they are neutral enough to go with anything then their stats are lousy. Further, because only gear in Elona can be customized with inscriptions, only max finds in Elona have any value. All work in all other campaigns is now obsolete because, no matter how entertaining the skin, your chances of getting something you can adjust to what you do is negligible. And since you can only obtain max drops by purchase from someone playing in hard mode the system now subordinates all other persons who either don't like hard mode or who have not got there yet, to the superiority and elite caste of hard mode playas.

The reason runes of various types have gone down in price is because they have increased their drop rate. Now they have decreased the rate of all drops, and restricted drops to various castes of people. I still see items advertised at 100k plus 25 ecto. I have asked about the cost of some things and been told they are 100k plus ecto. Anything over 5k I write off as Never Affordable. When I kill all the vermin in the Skyway I am lucky to come back with a purple, 1-2 blues, several whites and hides, and 800g. One in 3-9 bodies will drop. Sometimes I will kill 9 bodies and there is no drop at all. It does not matter where I go to to raise money, they are all like this game wide. It does not matter if I am in hard mode or normal. In hard mode today I did not see a single gold drop, and certainly nothing worth keeping or modifying.

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That's a slippery slope argument. I don't think many people pay tax on what they make on garage sales. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that garage sales support terrorism.

In most places they get a permit to have the garage sale. That is a tax equivalent. Nor would I jump to the conclusion that all garge sales are supporting criminal activity. However, those who are violating the EULA to bot and sweatshop farm using accounts stolen with key loggers are already criminals. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to conclude that buying their product is supporting criminal activity. But the fact is, people in our country who hold garage sales can be monitored and arrested if they are found to be using them for moving drugs, explosives, etc. People who are channeling untraced money through three or four international banking systems into nations which support terrorism under the table are not so easily monitored.

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The argument could be made that buying gold helps the U.S. economy. Say you could farm an item you want in five hours or you could spend $15 dollars to ebay it.

Since those committing the violation are primarily in foreign countries it is a flight of currency out of the domestic market into a foreign market, and so a reduciton in GDP - not an increase in taxable revenue through reinvestment into the domestic economic cycle.

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Let's be selfish and not worry about terrorism or the U.S. economy and worry about what gives us the most fun. Here's the important part. The way that you make playing the game the better choice is if you have fun while you're doing it. Who cares if it takes you five times as long to get your item if you're doing the stuff you enjoy? Just do the stuff you like and things will come in time.

Betraying my oath of allegiance to my nation will not give me "fun." And I will have fun playing the game when I can take care of my troops with proper equipment, and establish that image which entertains me. Until then I am merely bean counting through day after day after week after month of enforced laborious tedium.

Sli Ander · Jul 31, 2007, 11:15 AM // 11:15

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

First, a vanity item is something that has no effect. The mirrors one takes to the starving and homeless in Kaineng are vanity items. They mean nothing to those receiving them and will do nothing for them. Items that entertain the customer because they are appealing aesthetically and express what the player desires to express are Not Vanity items, they have an effect that is key to marketability of the game.

To be more precise, a vanity item(in relation to the game) is a game which has no greater inherent effect than anything else. A 15^50 fellblade and a 15^50 longsword perform the same task, but one is more preferred for its aesthetics. If you already have the longsword, and choose to get an identical weapon of a different skin, that could be considered a 'vanity' choice.

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But that is to reflect the realism of our world full of elitist jerks that can afford anything they want while everyone else is expected to do without. So it is a really good thing for everyone to just be frustrated and not get the stuff that would entertain them the way they want to be entertained.

For those that didn't read the context, this was sarcastic argument. Fitz, bitter much? Don't worry, my post has a point at the end...

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Unfortunately the armors do not correlate in any way as consistent with the weapons. There is no artistic integrity between them what-so-ever. I do have a healing branch on my monk because it goes well with his Lab armor.

Probably the most interesting thing you've said in this thread. I'd have to agree it would be nice if certain sets of armor had certain weapons with matching/similar designs.

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I want to maintain my own identity and coat of arms in Guild Wars and therefore refuse to destroy my guild just to join some large Faction Farming Mega Zerg for benefits (nor should I have to do so). But keeping my autonomy is a want, and not a formal part of game design. Everything about Factions was aimed at destroying small and single man guilds and eliminating said autonomy – so it is clearly and only a want. But the function of a fantasy game is to express one’s self in ways one cannot in real life. That means being able to get and use the items and appearances that entertain you in that expression. This is a “need” for the customer base, not a want.

I do not expect all of them to meet my standards. I do expect to be able to reasonably get and use those things that do through moderate and not excessive (and punished) effort.

I am always waiting for the perfect game, the game that can cater to everyone's needs/wants simultaneously. Where casual and hardcore can both be contented...

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So if we make nuclear waste rare people will become positively excited to find it? Or we should make food rare so people will really appreciate it when they are starving. Starving people of things that they would enjoy just to give them a high end adrenal rush for 5 seconds when they find it does not strike me as exciting. It strikes me as sadistic. Further, since when you find those skins they are never worth playing anyway (they are all lousy stats whether you get in normal or HM) what is the point? “Oh, cool a rare skin – well let’s merch it. It’s still crap like everything else.”

I'd certainly be excited to find nuclear waste, though panic would probably follow soon after...so lets use another analogy.
All you need to eat is some bread, meat and water(super simplified). But sometimes you don't want just bread and meat. Sometimes you don't want your simple home cooking, but would rather have a meal from a 5 star restaraunt. To a starving man it doesn't matter, its food(weapon looks don't matter as much as the stats); but to someone with a better life, its a treat(collector weapons can satisfy the stats, but sometimes you prefer a different skin). Are you going to walk into a restaraunt and complain that the famous chef isn't working in a soup kitchen so that more people can enjoy his food? If Anet were to make all weapons drop the same, one of two things would happen: 1) those weapons would drop value, due to lack of interest and certain groups would be satisfied or 2) something else would simply take its place. If nothing has value(even percieved) then what is there to pursue?

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So, where is the collector max armor in Elona? My Paragon, Necro, Mesmer, and Dervish want to know. And having an appearance that I do not like, or cannot stand, is not something that entertains me. Hence, it is a need to have that appearance, not a want. Runes of Major if not superior Vigor are necessary to offset costs of major and super attribute runes needed to play the game. They are not a want. And as I indicated, it is needed to put at least major vigors on my heroes, that I was not insisting they all have superior. The fact is using what one finds when one accidentally happens to run into it is in efficient and too late for play. This is exceedingly true if you are trying for Survivor title, which requires good equipment on anyone that does not intend to map out on every party that runs into trouble.

I wouldn't know much about the lack of max collector armour in Elona, or what heroes do or do not need. I don't have Nightfall, so my advice would be exceedingly useless in that campaign. I will say that I beat the Prophecies first time through with collector armour and no Major Vigor.

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What is the point of playing in crap to dress up the character and put them away once you are through the game? You should be able to be entertained with the appearance that entertains you while you are playing not pull it out and go, “Gee, doesn’t it look good now that I have nothing to do with it.”

I only started spending money on things like 15k once I'd semi-retired my monk, but that same monk was pampered and primped in smaller ways well after I was done with the game. I constantly used him despite having beaten both campaigns with him. Over half my account time is on that one character, so I can't say 'that I have nothing to do with it'

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I did that on CCs when they came out. I ended up giving almost 400 CCs away to a friend because they were worthless.

If you're talking Peppermint CC's, those were going for about 1k a while back, so that was quite a bit of money.

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I will have fun when I can express my characters in a manner enjoyable to me and not before. I will have fun when the things available in the game are affordable.

Before I move on to your final paragraph, here is the point to my entire decision to respond to your thread(I almost didn't because of the obvious steadfastness you maintain towards your own point of view). You gave an imperative statement that you wouldn't have fun until X happened. And combined with the rest of your thread, you aren't having fun.
Didn't that professor of yours mention something about Americans spending so much time planning, scheduling, and bean-counting their vacations that it was oxymoronic to consider it a vacation(I could quote if you like, but its on Page 2 I believe)? You've managed to do the exact same thing to your experience with this game.

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While we remain penalized due to short sighted and narrow minded policy which inspires EULA violation and forces farming in order to achieve anything of value, policy which promotes excessive prices and price gouging, then I find the situation serious. There is a criminal industry of untraced/untaxed money in excess of 7 billion a year to which ANet policy is contributing through prohibitive drops and allowance of sweatshop/botting. If you can prove that none of this untraced/untaxed money has been used in an illegal manner (which you can’t) then the discussion is not serious. I remember when drug dealers were busted in St. Louis area for using the kindergartner’s lunch boxes to make their exchanges with the parents. Using GW for an illegal exchange or to support illegal activities would in my opinion be no different. GW punishing legitimate players while doing nothing to prevent it does not inspire me to think the situation hunky-dory, and ignorable.

1. Define Value and you will find that everyone has a different definition. It is a rather vague word which asks you to put an ephemeral worth on an actual object. Sentimental and aesthetic value can easily be found within the game. I want a Divine staff from nightfall, which is by no means a rare skin, for its looks. I don't have Nightfall, but there are ways around that to get the item I want at a decent price.
2. When you can prove that there is untraced/untaxed money being used in an illegal manner(which you can't, because its untraceable) then I'll consider that discussion serious.
3. Mountains and molehills.

But that's just my two cents

Fitz Rinley · Jul 31, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

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Sli Ander:

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Fitz Rinley
First, a vanity item is something that has no effect. The mirrors one takes to the starving and homeless in Kaineng are vanity items. They mean nothing to those receiving them and will do nothing for them. Items that entertain the customer because they are appealing aesthetically and express what the player desires to express are Not Vanity items, they have an effect that is key to marketability of the game.

To be more precise, a vanity item(in relation to the game) is a[n item] which has no greater inherent effect than anything else. A 15^50 fellblade and a 15^50 longsword perform the same task, but one is more preferred for its aesthetics. If you already have the longsword, and choose to get an identical weapon of a different skin, that could be considered a 'vanity' choice.

If the longsword does not fit your character’s story, ideology, conceptualization, etc. then it is not a vanity item. The degradation of the character with inappropriate appearance is effected through skins which are inconsistent with the character. My necro drank the Cup of Corruption because that is the choice my Necro would make. It is consistant with character, even though my choice, and that of the rest of my characters was to take the cup to the palace and report the Am Fah. The clothes make the man. Appearances are everything – and this is especially true in a Video game whose entire function is to present an interactive appearance.

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I am always waiting for the perfect game, the game that can cater to everyone's needs/wants simultaneously. Where casual and hardcore can both be contented...

Casual and Hard Core can both be contented. Since when does the self-reward of working in Hard Mode to prove one’s skill to one’s self have to place one in a caste above all other players such that you can control their access to decent drops of currency and gold? Why does the Hard Mode/Hard Core player have to feel they are a superior human soul to all others such that they need special status, special economic control, and special privilege in order to feel their needs are met? What this tells me is that Hard Mode/Hard Core players are more concerned with their ego trip over and against others than with playing the game fairly for their fellow players. If Hard Mode is not worth playing on its own merits without special reward, special status, and economic control against the regular player base then it is a form of elitism catering to the egotistically weak minded and glutonous. If it is worth playing, and someone is really Hard Core, then they do not want or need special reward or compensation for doing what they supposedly enjoy. Nor should they desire others to be denied compensation and access to equal gains and rewards because they are Normal. Therefore, Hard Core is either an ego trip to compensate for low self-esteem or it is something people are only doing for the rewards that were taken away from the regular game to cater to these low self-esteem ego-trippers.

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Are you going to walk into a restaraunt and complain that the famous chef isn't working in a soup kitchen so that more people can enjoy his food?

I have eaten at 5 star restaurants in conventions and special social events. They were not worth eating at, let alone paying money to eat there. I certainly wouldn’t inflict that on people who need food and care.

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If Anet were to make all weapons drop the same, one of two things would happen: 1) those weapons would drop value, due to lack of interest and certain groups would be satisfied or 2) something else would simply take its place. If nothing has value(even percieved) then what is there to pursue?

1. Define Value and you will find that everyone has a different definition. It is a rather vague word which asks you to put an ephemeral worth on an actual object. Sentimental and aesthetic value can easily be found within the game.

The definitions of value is by no means vague, but does require maturity and perspective. The first error is in assuming it is one definition. Like Peace; we frequently discuss a desire for Peace as if it is a single uniform and indivisible entity. We cannot make the Peace, but we can make peaces. The lack of perspective, always using it in the singular is an obstacle to dealing with its many varied and separate potential occurrences. The same is true of value, it is not a singular occurrence, but in this occasion several all specific:

1. An amount of goods, services, or money equitable for exchange for something else. This varies according to needs. What for one man is an undesirable good may be exchanged to another who desires it for an agreed to amount that the first will use to obtain goods or services he finds desirable. That needs and interests vary does not make value vague, but rather the participants fickle.
2. Utility and merit establish a value, which is why, in game, there is nothing of any statistical value that is less than max in specifications excepting req 3 and req 6 weapons for certain builds, like Illusionary Weapon builds. Keeping in mind that aberrations/outliers do not change the general observation.
3. Principles, standards, and qualities considered worthwhile or desirable are also part of the several uses of value here. The existence of something conceptually does not make it vague. Pi only exists conceptually, but is critically effective and excessively non-vague in application. The same is also true of Character appearance which defines the persona for the game player. Application of skills, arrangement of skills, and arrangement of attributes do not define the pesona they define the player.

So, if weapons and items for play and appearance drop in general value (cost) they will still maintain a rate of equitable exchange based upon what the two in trade can agree to, the need of the one for what he/she does not have and the need for the other to have something other than what he/she has.

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So, where is the collector max armor in Elona?

I wouldn't know much about the lack of max collector armour in Elona, or what heroes do or do not need. I don't have Nightfall, so my advice would be exceedingly useless in that campaign. I will say that I beat the Prophecies first time through with collector armour and no Major Vigor.

There are no max collector armors in Nightfall. You can upgrade the armors of your Nightfall heroes from max to elite through special missions. I was informed you can only do this for a limited number of heroes per character so there is no reason for me to bother. What I cannot give all of my troops none of them need. However, all of the Heroes come with minimal weapons of pathetic specifications which do not improve. Only their armor specifications increase with level. It is left to the player to purchase or acquire all their runes, insignias, weapons, inscriptions, and upgrades. Per player character that comes to 11+ Weapons (with mods), 11 sets of insignia, 11 sets of runes, and possibly 11 sets of off-hands. If you have one of every class that comes to 1,550 plus items ranging in value from 100g to several k each. Then you have the 100s of k in cost of gold sinks such as titles, guild, etc. to consider as well.

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What is the point of playing in crap to dress up the character and put them away once you are through the game? You should be able to be entertained with the appearance that entertains you while you are playing not pull it out and go, “Gee, doesn’t it look good now that I have nothing to do with it.”

I only started spending money on things like 15k once I'd semi-retired my monk, but that same monk was pampered and primped in smaller ways well after I was done with the game. I constantly used him despite having beaten both campaigns with him. Over half my account time is on that one character, so I can't say 'that I have nothing to do with it'

Granted, Nightfall is the first attempt by ANet to do any role playing in this set of games. However, it was advertised as a role playing game initially, I bought it as such, and I play it as such. What you describe is a tool for use, not a persona to be expressed. You are bringing It out to play when It is useful.

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I did that on CCs when they came out. I ended up giving almost 400 CCs away to a friend because they were worthless.

If you're talking Peppermint CC's, those were going for about 1k a while back, so that was quite a bit of money.

I am talking about Candy Canes, which eliminate all DP. They were not selling for 100g awhile back when I gave them away.

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Before I move on to your final paragraph, here is the point to my entire decision to respond to your thread(I almost didn't because of the obvious steadfastness you maintain towards your own point of view). You gave an imperative statement that you wouldn't have fun until X happened. And combined with the rest of your thread, you aren't having fun.
Didn't that professor of yours mention something about Americans spending so much time planning, scheduling, and bean-counting their vacations that it was oxymoronic to consider it a vacation(I could quote if you like, but its on Page 2 I believe)? You've managed to do the exact same thing to your experience with this game.

I was forced into this function by the game and the game designers. There has been an inability to make money since I began playing. In almost every case even getting to where you can make money, only so you can get things that would enhance your enjoyment of the game, is set so far out that you cannot ever enhance it until your play of the game is over.

This is in keeping with the “PvE is only to coerce you into a PvP player and we really don’t care about your experience otherwise” foundation upon which GW was initially built. However, I am not creating my characters to PvP. My purpose is not to spend the entire game PvEing so that whatever I collect along the way I can take into PvP. My purpose is to role play the persona I create. Now not only am I forced to wait until the end of the game to even try to obtain things that will go with my persona for a purpose I do not have (PvP) but I am required to spend anything and everything I earn to acquire things necessary to that persona from elite farmers of Hard Mode. Further, they have ensured that what I earn will be insufficient to the needs of my heroes and characters through carefully managed Reaganomics.

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While we remain penalized due to short sighted and narrow minded policy which inspires EULA violation and forces farming in order to achieve anything of value, policy which promotes excessive prices and price gouging, then I find the situation serious. There is a criminal industry of untraced/untaxed money in excess of 7 billion a year to which ANet policy is contributing through prohibitive drops and allowance of sweatshop/botting. If you can prove that none of this untraced/untaxed money has been used in an illegal manner (which you can’t) then the discussion is not serious. I remember when drug dealers were busted in St. Louis area for using the kindergartner’s lunch boxes to make their exchanges with the parents. Using GW for an illegal exchange or to support illegal activities would in my opinion be no different. GW punishing legitimate players while doing nothing to prevent it does not inspire me to think the situation hunky-dory, and ignorable.

2. When you can prove that there is untraced/untaxed money being used in an illegal manner(which you can't, because its untraceable) then I'll consider that discussion serious.

It is already proven. Gaile Gray has admitted that the majority of bots are using stolen accounts. Ergo purchase of the majority of gold goes to subsidize criminals involved in the criminal activity of stealing accounts. A federal agent discussing the issue on National Public Radio stated that it is a $7 billion dollar a year industry of untaxed and untraced money over which there was concern. It is a serious discussion. Further, if ANet does not make a difference then federal regulators eventually will. Because, never fear, while working on objects of high priority which will take a great deal to accomplish, creating a group of rules for things of lesser priority is important for said agencies to increase the appearance of their productivity.

Malice Black · Jul 31, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Despite all your long winded posts, you fail to see one thing, there is no way to get rid of bots, except that fact and move on.

Oh, and please stop comparing in-game economics with real world economics and issues, there is no comparison what so ever.

This is a game, you either deal with what is thrown at you or hit the "x" button. Two very simple choices there, choose one.

Bithor the Dog · Jul 31, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

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Originally Posted by Malice Black

Despite all your long winded posts, you fail to see one thing, there is no way to get rid of bots, except that fact and move on.

Oh, and please stop comparing in-game economics with real world economics and issues, there is no comparison what so ever.

This is a game, you either deal with what is thrown at you or hit the "x" button. Two very simple choices there, choose one.

This has got to be one of the best posts ive seen on this forum for a while.
Hear hear Malice.
I really dont know what the guy says any way, Ive got him on my ignore list it fries my head trying to read all that stuff.

As to the debate...I dont think there really is a way to kill this. I listened to a radio programme on BBC radio 4 just the other day. It was about MMO's in general but centered on WoW and the same type of issues they have as we do on GW with Ebay gold, bots etc.
The guys in these "sweatshops" are mostly actual gamers who "kind of " do it for a real living. By that i mean its somewhat the only way they can live, eat and survive. I only caught the last half of the documentary but there are "companies" in China and asian countries that because of fraud laws etc, being practically non existant, the authorities dont really care about the trade.
The players, botmasters or whatever you want to call them, are earning about $100 US per week for this whilst thier higher up masters are taking a small fortune.

I dont condone Ebay gold or anything that violates the EULA, however its a thing that no matter what we or ANET do to subvert this, they will find a way round it somehow and still do it. If they want to get in, it seems, they will.
Taking out one of the causes, the player buying it, may dry up the trade a little faster but i am not sure it will ever go. ANET monitoring large deposits to players in game accounts is one way of doing this, and in the end so be it
Its the way of the world i think. There will always be people happy to play the game and others that want more NOW type of thing. The real thing is, if you aint doing anything bad then you dont have to worry about it as far as thats concerned.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 31, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

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Originally Posted by Malice Black

Despite all your long winded posts, you fail to see one thing, there is no way to get rid of bots, except that fact and move on.

Certainly. There is no way to eliminate fraud, so we should just accept it. We should completely ignore and allow CEOs to embezzle employee retirement accounts, ignore insider trading, etc. Afterall, we can't catch them all so the world will be fine by just letting it all happen.

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Oh, and please stop comparing in-game economics with real world economics and issues, there is no comparison what so ever.

I know better. You are grossly in error.

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This is a game, you either deal with what is thrown at you or hit the "x" button. Two very simple choices there, choose one.

All that is necessary for evil to win is for good men to do nothing. Both of your choices promote the loss of good.

Snow Bunny · Jul 31, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Certainly. There is no way to eliminate fraud, so we should just accept it. We should completely ignore and allow CEOs to embezzle employee retirement accounts, ignore insider trading, etc. Afterall, we can't catch them all so the world will be fine by just letting it all happen.

I know better. You are grossly in error.

All that is necessary for evil to win is for good men to do nothing. Both of your choices promote the loss of good.

Fitz, what is with the superlatives and cliches and the like?
Why don't you listen to the overwhelming feedback to your post?
This is like every post you make; you make a statement that contradicts itself, you call other people ignorant, and then you offer long-winded responses to every rational, pragmatic argument that comes across your path.

Listen to Malice, he's absolutely correct. There's no way to stop botters, and the economy/social worlds are not similar or comparable in any way, or shape.
Go farm a bit, it's very slow, but it works.